The post title is a question, but I have heard this philosophy repeated numerous times as a statement:
"Horses cannot reason."
The first person that I heard make this statement was a local trainer who has been in the business about twice as long as I have been alive. Disagreeing with an individual who has that much experience seems foolish, but this statement always bothers me. I have noticed that people who work with this trainer repeat this statement almost like a mantra. I think I understand the sentiment, but it strikes me as being too black and white.
Horses do not have the ability to think into the future like people do, but horses do understand consequences. If I offer my horse as much food as he wants, he may eat himself sick or at least become obese. He doesn't know that eating too much will hurt him later on. I get that. BUT if my horse steps on his lead rope while he is grazing, he knows that he must raise the foot on the lead rope when he feels the tug on his halter. I know that some horses respond differently to this situation, but I never taught him to pick up his foot, at least not intentionally. He has figured out that he can tether himself and free himself with his foot.
The trainer who makes the blunt assertion that horses cannot reason, would probably justify my horse's response as a "learned pattern", but it wasn't a pattern the first time it happened.
The same trainer likes to explain just about every behavior that horses exhibit as a result of "muscle memory". Muscle memory and habits definitely go hand in hand, and these are definitely barriers when the muscle memory "installed" is not the one you want!
However...
I still feel like this is not indicative of so many horses that I have observed. For example, take the lesson horse who "realizes" that he can get a break during the lesson by stopping to poop and not actually pooping. I have worked with some very smart lesson horses and the smartest ones figure this out. The horse stops, plants his feet, and raises his tail, but nothing happens. The group of volunteers, rider, and instructor wait politely as the horse feigns the call of nature. I am not talking about a horse who is having some type of intestinal distress or physical problem. I am talking about a real life faker. I have seen it, more than once, and the worst offenders save a few gems for each "break", so that you will be even more reluctant to hurry them along.
(I know that many people do not allow their lesson horses to stop for the call of nature, but I gave up on this a long time ago.)
Part of reasoning is judgment. Horses definitely cannot make judgments, right?
Although there was that time, that I rode Harley in his old western saddle and he ran away from me the next time that I went to get him in the paddock (the saddle did not fit). He has never done this before or since. He also pinned his ears at the special shimmed pad that I bought for him when we were between saddles. He loved that pad until I tried using it under his new (used) well-fitting, comfy saddle. Was this just a response to pain/discomfort or was he passing judgment on gear that was not working for him?
Am I going too far? I do not consider myself the equestrian equivalent of a hippie and I am absolutely not one of those people who buys into animal communicators or magic, unless you consider a really great dressage ride "magic", that is.
What is your answer to the question?
I clicker train my horse Cole. Sure they can reason. He has come up with creative behaviors that he thinks he may get a treat for. (He taught me to click him for his version of a Spanish walk.)
ReplyDeleteI had a horse who would fake needing to urinate on trail because I would give him a treat if he did. He would set himself up--turn and look at me for the treat. This takes thinking ahead.
They may not reason the same as we do, but could any animal survive in the wild if they only reacted to stimulus and didn't put a little reasoning in to make their decisions? It's not all instinct. The deer used to run away from my unleashed dog, but they don't run from my leashed one. They learned she can't get them.
That is a very good point about wild animals requiring some sense to survive. I have caught wild birds staring through the window at my pet birds. Why would they stop to stare if not to wonder and think about the other bird and their very different environment?
DeleteHarley does his own version of the Spanish walk, too! There are some early videos on this blog. I remember when he was learning this, which did involve treats. I could definitely "see" him thinking and trying to decide what to do next.
He also understands the concept of "every other", because he alternates lifting each front foot even if only cue one side. Do you have video of Cole's Spanish walk?
I wonder if the crux of the issue is not whether "horses can reason", but rather if humans can acknowledge that there are different kinds of thinking, reasoning and communicating than just what we see from our human perspective.
ReplyDeleteIsn't there a scientific principle that takes into account the effect that the observer has on the phenomenon being observed?
Excellent point and I think that is exactly the "crux" of the matter. We are talking about a very old-school trainer, but he does have lots of success and many people credit him with the progress of themselves and their horses.
DeleteOh exciting! A science reference! Yes, that principle has to do with Quantum Theory and the ability of electrons to behave like particles or waves. A beam of electrons will only behave like a wave (bending around a barrier) when no one, including a non-sentient being like a computer, is observing the beam. This is a physics concept which barely fulfills the definition of "concept", because it is so bizarre and difficult to believe. However, one need not "believe it", it is observable and documented! Here's a link.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm
Does something like this happen with the observation of everyday events, like training a horse? I do not think we have enough information to know that, but I love that you brought it up!
It's a bit of a stretch and I didn't word it well, but the point I wanted to make (referring to quantum uncertainty) is that our conclusions must be affected / bound / restricted by the human perspective when we judge the intellectual capabilities of other animal species... (I'm fascinated by quantum theory - the very limited understanding I have of it :D)
DeleteYou worded it just fine. I understand your point and there is a lot of truth to it. That is the very reason that human clinical studies are often performed as a double blind experiment. This is an attempt to not influence the observations of the experimental and the responses of the subjects.
DeleteI think that animals do reason, and I think that they can tell things that are going on and find ways to let you know but thats just my opinion
ReplyDeleteI think that it is not really fair to say that animals do not reason just because their version of reasoning does not fit perfectly into the definition for humans.
DeleteYes, indeed they do reason - except about things that matter to horses, not people, leading people to dismiss them and say they're stupid - horses probably do the same about us!
ReplyDeleteGood point!
DeleteHarley refused to enter a deep puddle on our last trail ride. I forgot to consider his "reasons" for not wanting to enter the puddle and tried to make him walk forward. After balking, which I should have realized was a very clear message, he placed one front foot in the puddle and his leg sank in the mud almost to his knee.
Oops. We went around the puddle and I apologized profusely for being the stupid one in the partnership.
I think horses know what they like and what they don't like. I think they can reason, but it is probably more primitive than we think. I know when I use clicker training with Shy, she knows both feet on the mat and she gets a treat. If she has a hoof half off, she does not get a click so she readjusts her feet.
ReplyDeleteGroundwork and clicker/treat-motivated training demonstrates that horses can think in a clearly observable way, as long as you know what you are looking at.
DeleteBased on your description, Shy understands nuance, not just a blunt idea and I think that is profound.
I think they can reason based upon my experiences, they remember and associate different actions and reactions and will perform them again. Like with jumping and stopping, if your horse stops at a fence, and you never get after them to actually jump it, they will get out of jumping again and again.
ReplyDeleteOh yes, the horse trains the person. That is an interesting phenomenon and it can be so easy to get sucked into it, even if you think you are looking for this smarty-horse tactic.
DeleteI assert that our latest addition to the equine lesson staff does this. He roots and jerks on the reins. His exercise rider says that the horse will stop doing this as long as you ride him with loose reins. I say, "Horse training person alert!"
So I had to look up the difference between reasoning and learned behavior. Reasoning means that you don't have to use trial-and-error to figure something out, learned behavior means that you tried different things until one works. Based on that, I tend to think that some horses - the smarter ones - perhaps reason a little bit. For example, I've seen a horse step on a lead just like you have, and the first time it happened, he literally lifted each foot in turn to try to free himself. After that he seemed to "know" which foot was on the lead. Another horse I have has never figured it out - if he manages to get off the lead, it's completely by accident. Another example is a horse that opens gates. The first time he messes with the latch because he's bored and mouthy, eventually it opens and he's free. He's done it once, now he tries it again and is faster the second time. But if you give him a new gate with a new type of latch, he's not going to look at the latch, go "A-hah! That one is a slider, you open it like this," and be able to open it on the first try. He knows he can open it because he's opened others, but he's going to play with it until he gets it open. So in that case I think he has "reasoned" that the gate can be opened, but it's going to be trial-and-error to get it open.
ReplyDeleteI think this is all about the pressure/release training that we use on horses. We keep asking them for something (they don't know what), and they keep trying different things until we release the pressure and/or provide a reward of some type. They go "A-hah! If I do X, I get a treat!" but they might have tried options A-W before they got to X, so they're using trial-and-error to figure things out, rather than reasoning.
Of course, I could argue with myself that it takes reasoning for them to go "My eediot owner is asking me to do something again, let's see, what should I try THIS time to get a treat?" LOL!
How's that for a round of convoluted reasoning?!?!?
*laughing*
DeleteI am sure they do think about us that way. I had a lesson yesterday and we asked Harley to do some new stuff that was decidedly silly from anyone's perspective. He tolerated our requests, but I am sure that he was also judging us and considering calling the loony bin. ;)
If trial and error does not count as reasoning, then there are lots of humans that, by definition, do not reason and some give up before attempting trial and error!
I'm of the opinion that horses can reason. I've seen many examples over the years. To name just a few: the time Dusty desperately wanted to go out with the herd while she was convalescing and wasn't allowed. She figured out how to open the latch on the shed trying to get out to the pasture. Luckily, I caught this and put the video up (Dusty vs. the Latch). Or just recently when Blue got bored and opened the back gate for him and his friends and took them on their morning adventure. The time I was untacking Dusty and Mellon was standing by watching. My daughter went to try Dusty's saddle on him and he took off trotting down the aisle and went outside. He's retired and doesn't want to ever work again. So to me that's reasoning and not muscle memory or a learned situation.
ReplyDeleteIt annoys me when people won't keep an open mind and simply spout off what they've heard. Being around horses my whole life has taught me that you must constantly change your opinion. Nothing is written in stone.
Very well put and I love your examples. I remember the Dusty vs. the Latch video and Blue's recent morning escape!
DeleteI share your annoyance. I also question how someone could be around horses for so many decades and have not come to the same conclusion.
Good question. That would make for an interesting study. I guess we just need the technology to "watch" the images produced in the subconscious. This sounds insane, but I think that I read something about research going in this direction. Scientists are very curious and when they have the funding, there are few limits.
ReplyDeleteI have watched Harley dreaming. His feet and eyelids were twitching just a sleeping cat.
Very interesting! I think they can reason....but when fear gets in the way, I think reason goes out the window.
ReplyDelete